Call backs but no offers

A few of you have wondered what to do if no offers have been made, despite several call backs interviews.  As I mentioned before, you may still be on hold.  Yes, you might be the second or third choice, but in the end, if you end up at a firm you like and they hire you full-time (because you've proven yourself), then who cares if you weren't the first choice.  My suggestions would be to stay in touch periodically with the recruiting coordinator and let the know of your continued interest.  This week, a candidate got an offer from me because the other potential that I had in mind had gone silent and I figured he or she wouldn't take our offer since didn't seem that interested.  You may also want to drop an email to the Hiring Partner, especially if you met that person.  We like people who show a strong interest because it means you are likely to accept.  But remember, don't hound us, and please don't attempt to go over our heads with managing partners of offices, etc.  We know what is going on and are doing the best we can to manage the numbers, particularly in this economy. We do not want to run into an oversubscription situation because we want to be able to give everyone full time offers at the end of the summer.  We are being more cautious this year because we can't risk over-capacity.  If you hear from our recruiting coordinator, it is probably because the HP has asked her or him to check in with you to see if you are still interested.  This means we still are thinking of you.  

Now, what else should you do.  If you think things are not going well, I would expand your search -- look for company internships, governmental summer positions, smaller/mid-size firms.  Find something that will add to you resume and may have some potential of future employment.  I realize the law firm route is more direct but with the market being as it is, you will need to be more creative.  And yes, ask your contacts in the legal and business world for advice.  HP got a IL summer job because HP asked HP's uncle if he knew any law firms with openings (uncle was in transportation business).  Resume went to a law firm and HP got interviews.  It turned out that HP's uncle sent it to his friend, who happened to be a private investigator for the firm.  Sure, it wasn't an AM LAW 100/200 firm, but it was great experience and got a law job on HP's resume to position HP for 2l hiring.  So, you never know. Don't be shy - make the ask!

Answering Some Questions

I have to say, HP isn't that inspired as to a particular topic, so I thought I would answer some questions you've had.

1. A student asked about whether he/she should transfer from a not great school to a more prestigious school.  I would say, particularly in the legal market the next few years, it probably is a good idea to upgrade schools.  The one caveat I would have is if your grades are superb, you like the current school, and you plan to practice in the region where that particular school is viewed favorably, you may want to stay.  If you want to work in a big market and you are not there, or you are there but at a mediocre school, you've got a tough rode.  I saw someone who transferred from a mediocre school to Georgetown. We interviewed them. They would not have received an interview if their resume indicated they were still at the mediocre school.  That said, if I were a regional firm in that mediocre school's region and this candidate had top grades, law review, etc., the person probably would do just fine.

2. We've had several questions on following up after callbacks.  I have to say, there are several candidates "on hold" at HP's firm because HP is waiting to see if other people accept their offers. It is perfectly acceptable to check in after a couple weeks, and even a couple weeks after that.  Of course, there's a fine line between obsession and professionalism.  I like when people check in because it shows me they are still interested in us. So, if I am deciding whether to give an offer to Student A or Student B, part of what I am thinking of is who is likely to accept (perhaps before the NALP deadline!) and I may choose based on who seems most interested.  I haven't heard from someone in a while and figure he's moved on while we have seen other candidates.  Maybe he thinks we are not interested in him?  In any event, I am probably going with someone else who I think will take the offer. 

3. This actually isn't answering a question, but putting out a request.  If you've got multiple offers and -- since you have firm X you aren't taking firm Y, please go ahead and politely decline firm Y.  We understand people make choices for different reasons. We may ask you your reasoning just so we can understand and if it is something we can improve, to find out what that is.  In this economy, it would really help your colleagues and others if you decline early so that we can move on.  I realize I am calling on your altruism but, as my high school foreign language teacher used to say "it's nice to be nice."  If you are waiting on other firms, we usually understand that, but do keep the other firms informed of upcoming NALP imposed deadlines on your offers.

I hope that helps guys and gals.  HP is going to go watch some baseball.  

Diversity

Some commenters wondered how diversity factors into our thinking and noted there seem to be "looser" standards for women and diverse candidates. I can only speak for this HP, but I will tell you my standards are not "looser" when we are speaking with diverse candidates.  Rather, all things relatively (or nearly) equal, furthering the firm's diversity goals may come into play if we are considering Student A vs. B. However, a diversity factor won't - in my book - get you a call back if you weren't lauded by the screening interviewer.  You might get a screening interview if your grades are outside the cutoff slightly. But, if you are far away from the cutoff, being diverse isn't helping at least at my shop.  We have too many other candidates - diverse and non-diverse - who have great resumes.  

On the subject of women, just being a woman doesn't really buy any easier route these days. We see plenty of women in our screens and call backs.  It is more so the diversity factor that might be considered, assuming all else is equal.  I assure you that there are no "looser" standards for women.  If you see them getting call backs and offers, it is because they are highly qualified and -- as if often the case -- they tend to shine more in the callbacks personality-wise.  Many women have an easier time connecting with people they are just meeting than men.  Again, these are my observations. When I was on campus a couple of months back, the women were terrific.  The men, more mixed. 

I know I promised to discuss women's issues in a later post, and I will do so.  The law firm world is a difficult place for working women - especially working moms. It has gotten better over the years. If you are considering a family life down the road, you do need to think about selecting firms/companies/other organizations that appear to promote women -including those with families (ie. not just those who give up lives to devote selves to firm).  You do not want to be in a place where the lawyer moms are ghettoed to senior associate or of counsel forever.  Lack of power = lack of respect.  And, try to beware of that particularly evil brand of woman lawyer -- women who do not support other women.  My lawyer/mom friend says "there is a special place in hell for women who denigrate other women (without any basis for doing so). " 

Just HP's two cents for the day. 

quick input re thank you notes

Questions regarding thank you notes have been asked several times in the comments.  My quick take is:

(1) not necessary after an on campus screening interview.  But, if you want to send a short note expressing continued interest, enjoyed meeting interviewer, etc., this is AOK and might help. Since these decisions are usually made quickly regarding callbacks, you need to be prompt.  An email is ok.  I received one from a candidate that same afternoon while I was still on campus.  In the end, his grades weren't high enough, but it did give me pause because he seemed like a good guy who was sincerely interested in firm/practice and I liked the very quick follow through. Had his grades been a bit higher, I would have given the callback and the speedy thank you would have played in my decision-making.

(2) after call backs, not totally necessary, but doesn't hurt.  Needs to be timely, i.e. within one or two days.  I don't mind emails; but you should do them within 24 hours since they can be sent more quickly than regular mail.  I take a quick look then forward them on to the recruiting coordinator for the file and to our committee.  To me, it shows follow-up and a continued interest.  Now, if the candidate is so-so or didn't do well in interviews, it won't change anything. But if candidate is pretty good and we are choosing between a couple of people, we will factor in that this candidate seems really interested (i.e. perhaps more likely to accept than others) and that person may get the nod.  Formal thank yous are fine also, just try to get them out quickly because there can be U.S. mail delays.  I don't think we would choose one person over another because of the email versus hard copy thank you.  That's me -- perhaps I'm less formally inclined on this one.  But we do note a sincere thank you note and include it in the file. Again, if we have someone who sent a thank you versus someone who didn't and their reviews are similar, the thank you person may get the nod because we think they may be more likely to take the offer than to leave us hanging through the NALP waiting period.  Especially in this economy, we need to be careful about offers and most of us are cutting back on class sizes.  

Heller Serves as a Good Reminder

HP is sorry to hear about Heller's impending dissolution.  I worked with some of their attorneys and found them to be talented and dedicated.  Alas, they will be out in the legal job market now, too.  Unfortunately, they are out at a time when firm hiring is pretty flat.  My legal recruiting friend tells me (even before Heller's announcement) that lateral associate hiring is quiet.  Partners with books of business (of course) can find new firms.  But, worker bee partners, counsel, and associates (aka "grinders or minders") are going to have a difficult time finding new firms, unless the rainmaking partner friend takes them along or they fill a very particular niche at a firm that is willing to hire them.

I realize most of you do not work at Heller.  But, this situation presents a good lesson in remembering that the boom days are over and none of us are indispensable.  You need to set yourself up, the best you can, for alternative situations.  This applies equally to involuntary moves as well as to voluntary moves -- e.g., you need a change versus firm dissolving.  Or, the firm brought in three lateral associates from a lateral group who are now above you class-wise.

Things happen.  Yes, even to star associates.  As they say, life is not fair.  It is not always the most qualified person who advances. 

So, what can the Heller attorneys do?  My advice on this one applies to any attorney who needs or wants to move laterally.  First, find yourself a reputable headhunter.  Ask respected friends for advice.  I used a headhunter when I moved and several former colleagues asked me months, even years, later, for the name of my recruiter.  Listen to what he or she says about the market, your chances, etc.  But, if you want something and they are not enthusiastic, you may need to find another recruiter.  I had a former colleague who wanted to be a reduced schedule partner and her firm did not allow those arrangements.  She consulted a recruiter who said that he had never placed a part time partner.  So, she got another recruiter.  Guess what...found a firm who made her a partner and let her have the reduced schedule.  Why did this work out?  The lawyer was committed to the advancement, she had portable business that would and did move with her, and the recruiter thought outside of the box.  

Next -- this may sound obvious but it is really important -- network.  Reach out to people in your network and let them know you may be interested in a move.  Be cautious of course because you want to keep this quiet if you are still at your job (of course, the Heller attorneys don't have to keep quiet).  Sometimes, a contact in your network will put you in touch with a contact in their network.  Go ahead and reach out.  Many people will be surprisingly helpful.  Plus, if a law firm lawyer connects you with a great in-house job, there's a potential benefit for that attorney since you may send business.  

Who is your network?  Former colleagues who have moved to firms, companies, etc.  People you know in your community (e.g., parents of kids on your kids' sports teams who are also professionals).  Case in point.  HP's friend had a great job open in friend's organization.  Friend asked HP did HP know anyone.  HP thought a minute then emailed a parent/lawyer friend at another firm.  That person wasn't looking to leave but had a friend who was.  That friend got the job.  

We will discuss networking and strategies for exiting in greater detail in further posts.  

Some keys are:  maintain a strong reputation - make sure people inside and outside your firm/company/organization like and respect you -- i.e. don't be an a-hole; stay in touch with your former colleagues, classmates, etc. through the years; get involved in firm/company activities, bar activities etc.  This will build your reputation.  

Of course, having some portable business if you want to move firms is always a huge plus and will give you more options.  Since this is a junior audience (I think), I won't harp on it, but we will explore how one develops business.  It is possible, even for those who don't come from $$$ or professional families and who don't see themselves as rainmakers.  Again, we'll discuss later.  The bottom line is that "minders" and "grinders," of course, have fewer options than "finders."  A good lesson to keep in mind.  

I've Returned

My loyal readers -- I have to apologize for being so out of touch. Next time I will try to give you word that I am taking a week or two off.  Things were really busy at the firm, combined with recruiting and a death in the family -- not immediate family, but a close relative.  Thanks for being patient.  I am touched someone was concerned that I lost my job in the financial crisis.  I'm fine, and thank goodness do not work at Heller.

It looks like I will have a lot of items to address.  Someone asked about what is going on behind the scenes when you have come in for a callback, had what you perceive to be good interviews, yet haven't heard anything for a couple of weeks.  You may still be in the running.  In fact, we ding faster than we offer, in many instances.  So, there's still hope.  If you got a quick ding, it usually means it was not a fit.  You had too many negative reviews, it was an obvious no go, etc.   So, for those who haven't heard, what is going on?

Well, it could be a number of things.  Perhaps the HP is out of town and needs to sign off.  Or, HP wants to consult with a practice group leader of a group you expressed a strong interest in, and that person has been unavailable.  It also may have to do with how the recruiting committee is run.  Ours has weekly meetings.  Unless we think we need to move on someone immediately (very special cases), we wait till our weekly meeting and then discuss each of the candidates who visited during the past week plus any we are holding.  We may be comparing and contrasting students, and ranking our choices.  We may decide to issue offer to Student A, but hold Student B and C, and ding D.  If you just came in during the past week, we feel we can hold you longer than someone who was in a few weeks ago.  Our recruiting coordinator may reach out to you to let you know you are still under consideration.  This is to give you an update and possibly to get some sense of how your situation is panning out -- e.g., our coordinator will often ask you to let us know if you have an offer that needs action under the NALP rules -- that may force us to decide sooner.  Finally, some firms have national recruiting committees in addition to local office committees, so they may need to wait until that meeting As I said, it can be any number of reasons. 

You may wonder if the HP gets the ultimate veto.  Again, depends.  Someone may not "wow" me, but if everyone else loved them, I will go along.  If it is more a split bag.  Some people thought ok, others said "definitely offer," I may be the tie breaker.  I try to be egalitarian on my committee to get different views and recognize that I tend to like a certain type of candidate and perhaps others like other types and different types will work fine in the firm.   

So, what to do?  After two weeks, it is AOK to check in with the recruiting coordinator, assuming that person was your main contact. Let them know you are still definitely interested.  Don't look desperate, but do express your continued interest in the firm.  Be respectful to the recruiting coordinator, these things are noted.  

Attire Part II

A male commenter asked about male attire and how "formal" it should be (e.g., colored shirts?  suits in colors other than black or navy).  This may vary coast to coast, but take this HP's advice and stick with the traditional navy or navy pinstripe, or dark grey, with a white or plain blue dress shirt and a tasteful tie.  Especially in this legal market, why distract from your substance with your dress?  You want us to notice your resume, your credentials, your bright personality.  Do you really want us to notice your eggplant colored shirt?  If we are noticing it, then it is probably because it is distracting us.  You have plenty of time to play fashion Ken. Do it on the weekends.  

I had a friend with a very strong New England accent. She got sick of people stopping her when she was speaking and saying it was cute, etc.  She got rid of the accent.  She explained "I would rather people listen to what I am saying than how I am saying it."  She understood the accent was distracting from the message.  Take it or leave it, but I think it is an interesting lesson. 

I think you asked about shoes and whether loafers are OK.  As long as shoes are clean and professional, I think they are fine, though most interviewees (I think) wear lace ups.  I said I think because I do not believe I have noticed any one's shoes this interview season.  That said, no need to distract. Go with something traditional - and get a shoe shine.