follow up on a tale of two associates

The two associates tale seems to have elicited some response and perhaps misunderstanding.

First, HP means no disrespect to women lawyers.  In fact, HP is known as an extremely supportive P when it comes to advancing women.  BTW, why do so many out there even assume HP is a man?  HP never identified gender.  HP could be a woman.  Why not?  Many HPs out there today are women.  I think there are some inherent biases here; since the launch of HP's blog, many people have just assumed HP is male.   That may be incorrect and a biased assumption.

On the subject of the two associates -- unless I didn't describe them the way I meant to, BOTH are hardworking -- Susan isn't "schmoozing."  In fact, if you read the description, she is the more hardworking one (at least that is what HP intended).  But, really my point was that Mindy is selling herself short in the long run -- and perhaps in the short run - but my point was to her overall reputation, status, and development.  Staff complained Mindy wouldn't acknowledge them; even women partners indicated Mindy didn't seem at all receptive when they reached out.  Now, hopefully Mindy has a good protector in her group -- but down the road, wouldn't it have made more sense for Mindy to have built her reputation in the office, beyond her practice group, beyond just the main people she works with?  HP is saying again not to be one-dimensional.  It makes sense to get to know more people for so many reasons, and have those people respect you.  

Case in point, HP has a friend who is a woman partner and a solid business developer.  Friend not slave to law firm. Friend has a family, works a reduced schedule, volunteers in the schools, etc.  Friend by all accounts has a good balance.  How did friend get this?  Well, friend worked hard as an associate.  Friend showed respect to all and was extremely responsive, pleasant and cordial - to other colleagues in her office, to colleagues in other firm offices, even to opposing counsel.  Friend now gets all sorts of referral work.  From where?  From former colleagues (even those not in practice group) who have moved in house, from former clients, even from former adversaries.  Friend has developed  reputation as a terrific, top notch lawyer who can be trusted and who is respected.  Mindy was not on her way in this scenario.

I am not sure why people thought Susan was just schmoozing.  Getting out of the office, getting involved in bar activities, professional organizations, etc, isn't just schmoozing.  I even said Susan developed a sub-specialty.  A wise lawyer with a huge client roster once said "you can be the best lawyer out there, but if no one knows who you are or what you do, you won't be a very successful lawyer."  Susan was working hard and developing her reputation.  She wasn't just hanging out at Starbucks with her friends - that is more of a Mindy thing.

I hope that has cleared up a few items.  

I will try to address the burn out (Rachel?) comment and also the "what if Susan has kids"comment  ( so what? - see note re: Friend above). She can have kids and still be dedicated, successful and see those kids -- bad bias on your part.  

a tale of two associates

An interesting story from HP's former firm provides some good material for today's example of how to be a great "all around" associate who helps advance her own career.

Associate 1.  Let's call her Susan.  Susan joined the firm laterally a short time ago.  Susan is a pleasant, cheerful person, but definitely at the firm to work hard, do whatever needs to be done to get the job done -- working late, weekends, etc.  Susan is pleasant and respectful to all -- partners she works with, other partners, counsel, and attorneys in the office, staff, etc. Susan does make an effort to attend firm events, such as holiday party, group meetings, women attorney meetings, etc.   Associate Susan is known as an extremely hard working attorney who is highly professional, trustworthy and personable.  She has also shown some business development potential by inviting her contacts to appropriate firm events and by developing a sub-specialty.

Associate 2.  Let's call her Mindy.  Mindy started with the firm as a summer associate and is now a mid level associate.  (Btw, no offense meant to our women lawyers here, these could be two men; they just happened to be two women at my former firm).  Mindy is a bright woman, with a strong pedigree.  Mindy does seemingly solid work for her group.  Mindy is seen socializing with her practice group, but not with others.  Staff complain that she does not really acknowledge them.  Other attorneys feel the same way.  While Mindy may be a good lawyer, we don't get the sense that she cares much about the firm (since she doesn't really participate in firm events), the other lawyers and personnel outside practice group, or really growing her career.  We don't see her involved in firm committees, or outside groups. Best we can tell, she bills her time, hangs with her friends at firm, and leaves.

So, if times are tough, who would you choose if you had to lay off one?    Well assuming both are fairly occupied on client matters...I would choose Susan as the one to keep of course.  She's got more long term potential -- solid firm citizen plus business development potential. And people like her, and she's building her network, reputation, knowledge base, etc.  

Second question, who has a brighter future?  Well, of course Susan.  She's getting out of the office, she's interacting with colleagues outside her group, and she's not causing any waves or creating bad feelings.

Third question, if I move in-house tomorrow and have a need...who would I call?  Duh...Susan.  Because I can trust her, and know that she will do a good job and know that she will make me look good -- because I have interacted with her and seen her interact with others.  

Fourth question, if my former colleague who is now a senior in-house counsel calls me down the road and says he is interviewing Mindy for a position and what are my thoughts on her...what do you think HP will say?  HMMMM.  

Mindy - for a smart gal -- is behaving dumb dumb dumb.  Perhaps finding a rich hubby is her game plan.  But, her behavior in the workplace -- being aloof (if not rude), clique-y, not getting involved in firm through committees, not getting to know her other colleagues, etc., is short-sighted in so many ways -- advancement in firm, advancement elsewhere, etc.  

Build your reputation, expand your friends, be respectful to all, get involved, be a good firm/company citizen -- be someone others respect, like, and trust.  Don't be a Mindy.  

small and mid sized firms

People sometimes ask HP if it is possible to make the move to BigLaw from a small or mid sized firm.  The answer is yes.  As prospects at BigLaw for entering and lateral associates shrink (my recruiter friends tell me hiring is pretty flat and very slow), many of you will need to expand your base of possible employers, as we have discussed.  In the boom days, with good grades, a good law school, and a decent personality, BigLaw is in sight.  However, these are different days and require some further thinking, creativity, and go-getting if you haven't landed through BigLaw recruiting channels -- and I don't believe BigLaw is for everyone anyway.  HP is just saying that the fall on campus recruiting process is a relatively pain fee process of finding a solid job.  It is more difficult to branch out.  But, that is what many will need to do, especially first years.

So, you ask, can I go from a smaller firm to Big Law eventually (assuming that is a goal)?  Yes, you can.  But how?  Well, wherever you are, you want to do great work and build your reputation.  Get involved in bar activities (you can often get involved even as a law student).  Reach out to potential mentors.  Offer to assist with committee work such as newsletters or meeting preparation.  Yes, it is grunt work and takes up time you could be doing other things, but it is a great long term investment.  Get your name out in the community.  Work in an area you love (ok, at least like).  Try to develop sub-specialties in growing areas. When recruiters call you, be polite -- call them back and establish a relationship.  If they don't call, ask friends for recommendations and reach out.  

Where does Big Law come in?  Well, a couple (few?) years down the road, slots will open when associates depart through the normal course or an area picks up and the firm needs additional bodies.  Firms will reach out further to fill these slots.  I have recommended several candidates we interviewed from smaller firms because of the experience in a certain specialty area where we needed help.  

Familiar tune here?  HP hopes I don't sound like a broken record when HP says that you need to push forward even harder during more difficult times to build your reputation, network, and seek opportunities.   

More on connecting with the small and mid sized in a later post.  

Vote for HP's Blog

HP interrupts the usual career advice to share some exciting news...

The ABA Journal announced that it has selected Hiring Partner's Office as one of the top 100 best websites by lawyers, for lawyers!  

Now, my friends, you can vote for your favorite blog.  To vote, go to http://www.abajournal.com/blawgs/blawg100_2008    We are under the Careers section.  Please don't let Gerry Spence beat HP (not that HP is competitive or anything)

Voting ends Jan. 2, 2008.  Vote early; not sure if you can vote often!  Wow, who would have thought HP's original rantings regarding flip flops would lead to minor fame, if not fortune.  As HP has just spent hours on firm administrative stuff, and had a lonnnng day, HP needs a little pick me up.  Thanks again for your support!  HP has to say that I am most impressed when my commenters give each other advice -- a lot of it very helpful and on the money.  So, you folks should be darn proud of yourselves. 

Advice for the Anxious

First, let me say that F-3, a frequent commenter here, has been giving some solid advice.  HP can't always blog as HP has client duties, administrative duties, and a personal life.  So, HP appreciates it when others step in to help out.  

I know that many of you are anxious.  On the subject of 1Ls, let me say that BigLaw jobs will be few and far between.  You guys and gals know that.  They always have been, and this year will be a heck of a lot worse. So, what to do?  If there's an area of law you are interested in, i.e. a specialty, I would recommend you try to find a paid (or unfortunately unpaid) internship at a governmental (state or federal) agency that handles these matters, at a corporation, or a smaller firm.  HP's friend who is an HP at another firm hired a gal for 2L summer from a decent (but not top tier) law school with pretty good, but not top of the class grades.  Why did this gal get the offer?  Well, a particular practice area has indicated they need a junior associate.  This gal spent her 1L summer at a governmental agency that oversees the industry served by practice group.  The gal also had prior work experience in the industry.  This gave her the edge over others who may have had better credentials but less "connection" to the specialty area.   Playing this out another way, let's say you may be interested in employment law.  There are tons of state anti-discrimination agencies out there where you could get experience helping to investigate matters under various civil rights laws.  

And, btw, we do often check references -- even if you don't provide them to us.  Oftentimes, either HP or someone in the firm will know people at the places you worked.  We may very well call up a contact there and get their assessment of you.  These are buyer's times again and we are buyers, so we can be extra cautious and careful about who we hire.  HP's friend had a gal who worked in-house last summer at a place where HP's friend knew a senior in-house counsel.  HP's friend called up the counsel and asked about the summer associate's work, demeanor, etc.  This goes in the advice category to do a good, solid job no matter where you are because -- HP ALREADY  SAID THIS: YOU NEVER KNOW WHO KNOWS WHO -- it is your reputation and career -- guard it -- work hard, be honest, treat people (supervisors, colleagues, opposing counsel, and staff) with respect.  What you do in one job or situation may come back to bite or help you. 

I know you are wanting more advice and I will try to get back on track on being a more frequent blogger.

A belated Happy Thanksgiving!  

Summer 09

One of our commenters asked about next summer and whether everyone is "screwed."  The answer is, no.  I assume you mean for those of you who have offers?  Well, let's start there.   The majority of you will head into your summer jobs as usual. Some programs may be shorter than before.  This wouldn't alarm me.  Remember, firms view summer programs as a long term investment, not a money making enterprise.  So, it is understandable that they may limit the number of weeks summer associates spend in their offices.  

My advice for you is similar to what I did when I was a summer during a tough economic time (note: I was the only one in my summer class to get an outright offer...others were on "hold.").  Keep your head down.  Work work work ... like a dog.  Yes, you should take part in social activities  But, if there is a non-command performance and you have a project to finish...finish it.  It would be helpful to get in early, stay late, have people view you as the type of person they would want to work with longer term.  We often ask, is this someone I would want to work with at 2am if I had a deadline that took us into an all-nighter..is this someone who I can spend time with...and who I can trust to put the time in, not blow stuff off, and do a solid job?

Yes, this summer will be tough.  You need to show that you are tough (but pleasant), bright, dependable.  Double-check your work, be enthusiastic about your projects.  If an important partner invites you to watch his or her depositions, negotiations, etc.  - GO.  Look interested.  Help with whatever is needed.  You need to make even more of an effort to show you are a STAR.  The fun is over, it is time to bear down.

networking again

HP returns, sorry for the delay there.  The news out there in the legal market is grim.  HP's firm has not had economic layoffs and did plan conservatively for next summer and fall incoming class. If you are a law student and anxious, I would say stay in touch with your firm.  For instance, if you are invited to any firm events (such as a holiday party) and you can make it, show up and socialize (no drunks though, not helpful to future employment).  Keep your eyes and ears open about how the firm is doing -- google searches, etc.  

For those of you out there, you need to continue to develop your personal and professional network.  A couple weeks ago, I witnessed a master networker in action.  This guy was at a community service event and he was connecting with all sorts of people - in house, private firm, etc.  He sent an email the next day circulating different people's emails to each other.  He explained to me that as a GC, it is so important to network because you never know when your company will be sold, go out of business, etc.  Get out of your offices and connect with old and new friends.