I ask my friends if I am missing something here. They all agree with me. What I have been saying is to take ownership of projects, show responsibility, don't complain, be a reliable go to person that senior attorneys and clients will want to go to again. These are basic principles -- and in today's legal environment - the heavy hand of the layoff ax, the salary cuts, the shifting of attorneys from practice areas - this is the time to show what you are made of - to show you are a team player and can be trusted and relied upon. So, you might have to stay past dinner. STAY. So, you might need to skip a meal. Big deal. SUCK IT UP. Be happy you have a job and do not give anyone a reason to take the ax to you.
Let me add a couple of things:
1. It wasn't easier for me or my generation. I got out of school in difficult economic times. Many in my summer class did not get offers. I worked hard as a summer associate - staying late, working weekends when needed, even came in on a day we were given off because I was staffed on a a big project. As an associate, I stayed late, weekends, holidays too. I sacrificed. Yes, I survived layoffs. Why? Because I kept busy, had protectors (who I did solid work for and watched their backs so they kept mine). I had a young family and had to try to balance the needs of that family with the needs of the firm.
2. No one said this is fair. Big Law firms can be nasty places. Some of these people would turn on their mothers. That said, if you want to retain a job there, you need to accept that it is a totem pole and you are the low person on it. That is the deal. Eventually you may move up the pole but there will always be someone above you on the pole. It is not meant to be a fair game.
3. You might ask, well why then? Well, some of you folks were making $160,000 out of school. That is incredible money people. Do you think that is 9 to 5 money? NOOOO. That is money that essentially buys you. Accept it.
4. Why stay? I've had top notch training. I've worked on highly sophisticated matters. I am privileged to work with terrific clients and smart colleagues. I generally don't have to hound people to pay me. It is a job that requires a lot of sacrifice, but it is still a tremendous job. Do not take it for granted.
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35 comments:
This post is one of my favorites. Thank you for telling those Whiny Wendys to find somewhere else to shove it.
HP you didn't respond to the comment about the lack of respect partners show associates. I don't think I'm being whiny when I say I think its completely inappropriate, under any circumstance, for a partner to let fly a string of obsenities in a supposedly professional office.
I understand that being a biglaw associate is a big time commitment and you need to be prepared to sacrifice. However, as you pointed out your hard work and sacrifice was rewarded. You had partners that valued you and were willing to go to bat for you when times got rough. Why should a young associate make the same sacrifices you made when the overwhelming consensus is that partners won't go to bat for you in today's economy?
There are some partners that won't go to bat for anyone no matter what. That's not personal, some people are just crummy humans. And a lot of attorneys are generally not good managers so they aren't going to work well with associates and that has nothing to do with the economy. So we have to take ownership of our own careers and ignore the crud if we can.
I love this entry. Love it. All to often I see the younger generation (including my own) carry on with a sense of entitlement. I fully intend to earn my rank, my clients, and my success. Hard work is the only way to truly achieve success. Give me a sixteen hour day over a handout any day.
HP, your true colors have really been showing lately: you're clearly just another fat, impotent, and self-righteous partner douche. And, just like all the other fat, impotent and self-righteous partner douches in biglaw, you have a strange compulsion to denigrate your associates and make their lives every bit as miserable as your own. I suspect it's just the usual carryover from grade school and high school, where you were bullied and made to feel inferior. Regardless, I am done reading your insipid blog. Get bent, douche.
I'm with Courtney on this one! If you think being a biglaw associate is bad, trying working as an engineer. It's the same hours at a third of the pay!
"Well, some of you folks were making $160,000 out of school. That is incredible money people. Do you think that is 9 to 5 money? NOOOO. That is money that essentially buys you. Accept it."
This would be a valid point if the market for recent law graduates was competitive, but its not. As this chart shows (http://www.nalp.org/apictureworth1000words) top law students have two options upon graduating law school. 1) They can take a job paying about 50k, pay the majority of their income to Sallie Mae for 30 years and go through life without any savings. Further, its most likely that this job is not very prestigious and thus future employers will look down upon it and there will be no room for significant advancement, barring miraculous luck by going solo. Or 2) They can go to a more prestigious job in a big firm that is essentially their only ticket to paying off their 150k in debt in a reasonable period of time and also one of the few options that will open doors down the line for them.
This doesn't seem like much of a choice does it? Yes there are type As out there gunning for partnership, but there are also many top students who are not and this group probably includes some of the whiners you are talking about. But what should they do? Option 1 above is not a viable choice for people in debt and desirous of a job with some margin of prestige. Now, imagine that Biglaw did not operate like a Sherman Act-violating oligopoly where all firms paid the same salary and required basically the same grueling hours through some happy coincidence. Imagine that some pay 90k and others 190k and still others pay everywhere in between. At the lower end firms would not demand so much of their associates, while those at the high would demand more. In this make believe land one of your whiners could opt to take a respectable job that has billable requirements in line with his desired output instead of choosing between 2 options neither of which suit his goals.
So until we get out of this bimodal system, there will be more slackers in Biglaw firms than there should be. Just know that in many cases there was no other rational choice for them to make. You don't want them at your firm and they don't necessarily want to be at your firm, but the market is pushing them there. You don't have to like it, just understand it.
@8:02: HP most certainly does like them. They bill mindless hours that line HP's pocket, and their weak souls and low status give HP someone to abuse on the bad days.
But hey, at least HP's doc-review-based training is top notch, and the clients are terrific, whatever that means.
Great post HP. The whiners are drivng me crazy...what one of the posters proposed (different salaries in big law) DOES exist! Go to cities that aren't big market and that don't pay $160k. They require significantly less hours and are more laid back. Go to boutique firms...they are often more laid back.
Quit your whining. I assume most of the whiners did not have to pay their way through college with a crappy job and thus have no idea how hard 99% of America (nevermind the world) has it. I'll take 12 hours in an office instead of 12 hours doing manual labor with toxic chemicals, dangerous work conditions, and 1/3 the pay any day of the week. Go work retail where no one will ask much of you.
If you are having so much trouble re-paying $150k in loans then maybe you shouldn't have taken out so much. Maybe you should have saved prior to law school, studied harder for the LSATs or gone to a school that gave you more money if debt is your main concern.
There are alternatives. No one forced you into law, no one forced you to take on debt.
Partners, execs, managers all abuse their subordinates...it's human nature. This does not make it excusable but it is not unique to big law. Haven't you ever read the prisoner/prisoner guard psychology experiment?
These ignorant little whiners who want mommy and daddy's lifestyle without having to work for it drive me nuts...especially since they're grouped in with my generation.
Thanks 9:02, I'll advise everyone I know to save 150k before attending law school from now on. The JD should do them a hell of a lot of good on their death bed. Then they can go work in a faraway town to which they have no connections. Great life. And going to a school that gave you money would make sense if firms didn't adhere to a strict hierarchy and rule out students at less prestigious schools. Aside from HYS kids, no one has the option of going to a top school with significant money.
And no one forced whiners into law but then again no one forced firms to pay them 160k. It's moronic to complain about people whining in Biglaw when they are getting paid 160k, AND THEN TO CONTINUE PAYING THEM 160K. If you don't like whiners getting paid so much then pay them less. Pay by merit. Otherwise you are part of the same system you are criticizing.
I'm with HP on this one. Don't expect a high six figure paycheck with responsibilities and demands that align with your priorities and schedules. For most of those people who are just starting out - you haven't done much to deserve that kind of privilege. If you're bringing in the business to fund your own paycheck, and if clients demand to talk to you and to work with you, then you're entitled to whine about people expecting too much from you.
I agree with HP. The pathetic thing is the number of partners that I know who are billing more hours than their associates because the associates have such a bad attitude and are worthless -- clients don't even want them on their cases.
6:54 - I know HP and you are SO WRONG in your description of HP. In fact, HP has been mentoring and trying to help associates and summer associates for years. HP is blogging because HP is trying to express the views that many partners hold, but don't express.
HP - I agree with you completely (I am a current 2L law student and appreciate your advice). I see this attitude in my classmates, those going into this summer and others who are being deferred/trying to find jobs for their year off...
and most of the people who are whining and complaining are people who went straight from undergraduate to law school. I wonder if you have noticed this as well? My classmates who have worked for a few years - even those who worked as paralegals - have such a better perspective. It shocks me to hear people say, "How will I live on $80k next year?" That is A LOT of money. I have friends in NY living comfortably on 1/2 of that, and with loan payments. Granted, less than law loans, but still...
I think one thing law firms should do to change attitudes is to encourage people to work between undergrad and low school. Give hiring preference to candidates who have done so, if you have a choice between an equal person who has and has not. Maybe this can exert pressure downward. Real world experiences goes a long way.
I agree 100% with 11:02am. Many of these whiners have no frame of reference when it comes to what they can expect from a workplace. They take a six-figure paycheck for granted, and once they pocket it they ask, "OK, what else can I get?" They show up at work, realize that they are expected to concentrate for more than 10 hours a day, and they cry foul. I worked with people who made a lot less but who truly embody a good work ethic. To hear people who make upwards of $160K complain about too much work is really something.
The market has completely tanked for a while now, and to still hear people with piss-poor attitudes complain about too much work is unbelievable - especially from people who are still making six figures.
This is Different-Track Guy who posted earlier as a guest poster on this blog.
I'm shocked to read some of the invective hurled at HP for stating what should be so blatantly obvious to any associate in any biglaw firm viz. totem pole status and general levels of expectations surrounding large salaries. Actually, the invective contained in many of the comments substantiates HP's discussion on whining. Get a life, people. Or, maybe more correctly, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Lastly, I know HP. HP is not fat and is quite stylish!
Posts like 6:54 are unfortunate because they make it easy to lump those of us with legitimate gripes with the profession under the category of immature whiners.
There are legitimate problems with the BigLaw structure, many of which have been pointed out over the past few comment threads. That said, HP certainly didn't cause them (except maybe, maybe in some fractional sense), and is likely a swell person, though a bit silly to be so dismissive of the concerns expressed here. This blog is trying to make the BigLaw life easier for juniors, and yelling at HP won't help things.
Wah, people don't like my blog, waahhh. I think it's about time to close shop here, given the complete lack of effort you put into this. Why not make your next post about how you need to take pride in everything you do or not do it at all?
So your response to a variety of specific criticism is to
1. Not respond to the substance
2. Lump it all together and call it whining
3. Write a post whining about how those reading/commenting on your blog are whining.
Are you a child in grade school or just someone who acts like one when you write a post on this blog?
I get that there are disagreements about how partners are running the firms or treating their associates. But it's an embarrassment to the profession that these people who call themselves lawyers can't find a more competent way to express their views than to attack somebody personally.
HP told you what partners are looking for, and what to do if you want to keep your paychecks. If you can't get on board with those expectations, you can make your own choices.
I think HP was right on target with this one. Look, I don't remember HP ever saying that big law firms were perfect. There are many, many things that big firms could do to make the environment better for associates. No question. However, it is what is it. And if you are making $160k for what is probably your first job, you have to realize that there are a lot of sacrifices attached to that salary. There just are and you have to accept that price tag or move on. I know a partner who lives in one of the best neighborhoods in the D.C. area. He once remarked that he couldn't remember the last time he was home for dinner. Does that totally suck? Yes. You can debate for hours upon hours whether or not the sacrifice is worth it. And if you decide that it is not, then move on down the road. It will be better for everyone. People survive on less than $160k a year, even people with student loans.
Speaking of student loans and crushing debt...please don't say that you are being "forced" into big law because of the debt. If you went into law school knowing full well how much debt you were undertaking, then you made your bed. I worked for two years after college to save money for law school. I then went to an in-state university and sold my car to help pay for living expenses the first year. I planned ahead so I wouldn't be overwhelmed with debt upon graduation. If you didn't do this, then you have no one to blame but yourself. You didn't have to go to law school. You didn't have to go the year that you went -- you could have worked and saved money, too. You had other options. To say otherwise is ridiculous.
OK these whiners are pissing me off. What the hell do you expect? A law firm is a BUSINESS, not a summer camp where everyone sits around a camp fire singing cumbya and sharing each other's feelings. People need rethink their expectations about law firms. If you were hoping for a job where people wear flipflops, have meetings on sofas, and can play hacky sack in an effort to spark ideas, go apply for a job at Google. The coddling law students get from professors (especially at the top law schools) is evident here. If you don't like the sweatshop, open your own firm.
If you "biglaw" types are bitching about how bad you are being treated by the big bad partner for not giving you a gold star, think about the crap temp and document attorneys go through. Think about the attorneys getting paid $30K/year working the same number of hours as you for an insurance defense firm. Hell, y'all are getting paid six figures! I graduated from law school last year and I STILL don't have a job. I would be happy to work where all you whiners are at for HALF your salary. Suck it up, be thankful you HAVE a GOOD job, and put everything in perspective for once in your entitled lives.
HP quoted in a NLJ article:
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202429987288
4/17 6:31am - I cannot agree with you more. I can't think of another profession where first year entrants - regardless of work experience (or lack thereof) - gets paid $160K. When salaries were going up, people were getting positively giddy, and commenting on how the gravy train would not stop. Law students had plenty of time and blog postings to alert them about the lifestyle that awaited them, so don't act shocked and dismayed when things don't seem as rosy.
And specifically related to HP's post - all HP asked of you is that you be professional and to show a good work ethic. If you have problems with your own partners, go shout in their faces, not someone who's just trying to give you advice that will save your job.
I also agree with 6:31am's point about debt. Nobody said you HAD to go to law school straight from undergrad or only after having saved $2000. I saved every penny I could for ten years before going to law school, paid for everything out of my own pocket, worked every job I could find during law school, and will be graduating with zero debt. I'm not saying that it's possible for everyone to do exactly the same thing - I truly sympathize with those who already have families to support, or those who did not come from privileged well-funded backgrounds - but I know many classmates who are now stressing out about money are the same ones who didn't think twice about going on expensive spring breaks or dropping money on drinks and dinners the entire time they were in school. I once asked one person how he could afford it, and he said, "I'm already so much in debt, doesn't matter if I add a bit more on top of it." Well, that little bit "extra" could have meant a couple months' worth of rent now.
Oh, and I paid all of my expenses AND saved $400-$500 a month even when I made $26,000 a year. Yes, it will take you longer to pay off your debt if you make less, but don't go around complaining that a BigLaw salary is your "only option" to pay off debt. It's insulting especially when there are plenty of public interest attorneys who have a lot of debt and who are continuing to pay them off as best they can.
Pretty ironic that a post about whiners devolves into a whiny rant.
I agree with HP. I am a 2L with a summer associate gig at a firm this summer. I appreciate any advice HP is willing to give. It will be a tough summer for many and it is good to get any help available.
I think the people whining are just unreasonably sensitive and overly defensive. However, if a firm is going to give limited offers this summer, it is reassuring to know that these whiners are probably the ones who will go home empty handed.
I think some people are frustrated by two things.
1. The fact that HP will not admit that partners are also at some somewhat responsible for the demise in civility in the practice of law. The endless pursuit of greater profits to the exclusion of all else has made the practice of law less enjoyable than it was a generation ago, and the people who practice in law less human. Generation Y is lazier, and that's a fair charge, but the baby boom generation has an equally bizarre obsession with money, and will go to any lengths to have more of it.
There's no problem with assailing the lazy, self-indulgent, spoiled mentality of generation Y. But you can't assign 100% of the blame for the misery in BIGLAW to them alone. That's what HP is missing.
2. This is somewhat related to the first point, in that HP seems to lump all criticisms together in the category of "whining." There is a difference between complaining about having to work hard and earn your bones, and complaining about partners whose behavior borders on sociopathic, and the fact that many firms are increasingly willing to tolerate these individuals and their unprofessional behavior for business reasons.
I left BIGLAW to work at a boutique, and am very happy with the change. I work just as many hours, and am earning my bones here, but wanting to have partners that treat you like a human being in exchange for working 80 hours a week to produce excellent quality work, is a fair expectation.
Spot on 1:42. A shame so many are quick to jump in and agree with all of HP's strawman arguments.
Half a truth is a lie and that's the problem with HP's posts.
Also, whining in a post focused on calling others whiners is something a person should avoid if the person wants to have credibility.
"That is money that essentially buys you. Accept it."
I think this is the really scary quote in his message, reflecting how many (most?) large firm partners feel. Because an associate is paid so much money, he is actually not a human, but rather "property," and shouldn't expect to be treated any different than a piece of property.
He's attacking, what 3:50 describes as a "straw man:" the associate who complains about having to work hard and show he's worth his pay. But that's not what people are saying. As 1:42 says, its about treating the associate with respect in exchange for his hard work, and not tolerating "screamers" as just a cost of doing business. The legal profession used to be more than the sum of the costs of doing business.
To the extent that HP doesn't even acknowledge any of this, he personifies the problem.
I agree with the comment above.
160k entitles a partner, at the most, to ask an associate to work 24/7. However, the partnership has not purchased the right to shit on an associate's face.
Small-law shops have and (mostly) do view law as a profession. Big-law shops are a relatively new entity; they view law as a business. Each has its ups and downs. Young lawyers can choose a professional work environment (with the salary available at a place that doesn't prioritize profits) or a business salary (with a corporate work environment).
Many of the complaints come from people who want to have their cake and eat it, too, in part because they chose law schools without understanding the structure of the legal profession, and now have big-law debt for a big-law degree, despite (sometimes) small-law tastes (for which a small-law degree would suffice).
5:21PM Your post suggests that a big business oriented firm is not compatible with civility. Why is that necessarily the case?
@11:46pm: I suppose it's not _necessarily_ the case, but the point is that large firms are those that have chosen to put their profits above all else. That means that civility is going to be around only to the extent that it is compatible with maximizing profits; to the extent that throwing money at an associate is cheaper and easier than telling a client that something will be due a few days, a big firm will be more likely to do so. Also, a larger enterprise generally finds it easier to throw money at problems than to throw attention at them.
~5:21
6:31 - When did you go to law school, 20 years ago? Tuition has gone up about 100% in the last ten years alone. In 1999 it cost about 25k/year and now its up to just under 50k/year. You can probably do the math and figure out that entry level salaries have not doubled to make up for that. I worked for three years after undergrad, paid off my undergrad debt and saved about 20k and all that covered was my non-tuition related expenses for my first year (rent, books, food, bills, travel). Saving up enough money for three years of 50k tuition is impossible unless you are (were) and i-banker.
This is 6:31 AM responding. I graduated in 1997. Private schools, like Georgetown, were about $20-22k a year if I remember correctly. My starting salary in 1997 at a big firm in D.C. was $90k. So, actually, starting salaries have almost doubled since that time. And I'm not saying you have to have every cent saved up. But work for a few years to at least reduce the debt you will undertake and then you will have more options when you graduate. Also, I didn't go to Georgetown even though I was accepted there because it was too expensive, especially when you factor in living in the D.C. area. So I went to a state school in a small town and saved a fortune. Still was able to graduate and get a good job in a big firm.
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